Episode 12
· 41:51
I will say that our business is stronger than it has ever been.
Joe:The success of growth and where I see companies growing consistently really is your people. I mean, the story is not does it make power? Because they all make power. The story is what does it power?
Khanti:This is what solar installers need to know with your host Herve Billie and Joe Mahamati.
Intro:Hi there. It's Herve and Joe in what solar installers need to know, where we interview solar CEOs and experts on how they run their business on the solar cluster. We ask their private revenue numbers. We give actionable advice and learn about trade secrets so you can run and grow your solar business. Joe and I built a solar company from 0 to 12,000,000 sales and got successfully acquired.
Intro:If you'd like to do the same or do better, go to sunboy dot com slash blog to get actionable behind the scenes lessons on running and growing your solar business. And now without further ado, let's jump right into the next episode.
Joe:Hi, everyone, and welcome to the latest installment of SunBoy's What Solar Installers Need to Know. Today, I've got Conti Munro of Connect DER. Welcome, Conti.
Khanti:Thank you, Joe. Thanks for having me on.
Joe:My pleasure. I'm gonna start with a little bio so everyone knows who you are. You are a self proclaimed solar nerd like me since 02/2001. Although, yeah, you've been a solar nerd longer than me and longer than most people I know. And you've immersed yourself in the industry straight out of college building off grid systems in Vermont.
Joe:You've held a number of roles, including leadership positions at Solar Energy International, an Edison, Turnative Energy Store, same son of Vermont, and now you're senior product manager at Connect DER where you help oversee the development of new and innovative meter socket socket adapters. You hold an s license in the state of Vermont, and you've been NAPCEP certified since 2013. From one module off grid water pumping systems to 250 kilowatt parking canopies, a branded solar array for whistle pig whiskey. Oh, I I wanna know about that. And rooftop systems for Bernie Sanders.
Joe:There's little in the industry Conti hasn't tackled. Wow. I think you are the solar industry. You've done just about everything, and these are my favorite types of interviews because you've been on every side of the table. I've gotta ask about Whistlepig and Bernie Sanders first, though, please.
Khanti:Yeah. Those are those are probably podcast episodes in themselves. Whistlepig was a was a fun one. That was something we were working on ownership there for quite a long time, and it was a story about branding and listening to your customer. I'm happy to dive in.
Khanti:It's quite a quite a good story if now's the right time, Joe.
Joe:Well, maybe we'll save that one for the end. I I guess Yeah. Tell us a little bit about how you got into the industry. So you designed your own major in renewable energy at Green Mountain College. What does it mean to design your own major, and how did that lead to where you are today?
Khanti:Yeah. So that's a great question. Did a gap year, I guess, as as it's known, right, after high school, ended up doing a semester at sea sailing program called class afloat out of the Montreal area and was exposed to a massive amount of, you know, different cultures and remote places that had no access to clean energy and water. Women walking for miles for for water, kids reading by kerosene lamp. You've heard this story before probably.
Khanti:My mother is actually a fundraiser for a nonprofit that did rural electrification as well. So I had a few different influences that kinda guided me towards wanting a career that would help people like that. Ironically, I came back to The States motivated, but found that The US had its own set of challenges with energy, and I wanted to just dig right in. College I went to, a rural college in Vermont, I did not have back in 02/2001 any programs for renewable energy. Right?
Khanti:This is still still the early days. So designing a major was a path to kinda chartering my own path and creating independent studies, working with faculty to, you know, dig into the industry, learn the technical pieces, the policy pieces, spent a summer with CI out in Colorado taking every class they have, living off grid in a tent. Kinda the rest is history from there.
Joe:And when you graduated with that degree, what was the first thing you did? How did you kinda find yourself in the solar industry?
Khanti:Well, during my studies, I was also building out some off grid systems, as you mentioned there in the intro. So I was getting some hands on experience right up to my graduation. And the first job I had was with Solar Energy International in Colorado. So I I drove across the country in a biodiesel car and worked with them basically to develop their training facility on the Western Slope Of Colorado. So I was a, you know, a pioneer, if you will, with the with the SEI team, a lot of lot of my mentors were there already.
Khanti:But I was able to jump in and really kinda help launch their training program on the Western Slope where now they conduct dozens and dozens of lab in, lab installs and and trainings every year.
Joe:Yeah. It's interesting. When I was running a solar business looking for training programs, mature training programs in The US, there's not that many. I mean, Solar Energy International is maybe the most prominent. Do you see more of these types of programs cropping up, or how do you see installers giving their entry level folks proper training?
Joe:Are they doing all in house? Are they sending them to SEI, or are there other programs cropping up?
Khanti:Yeah. We've seen a number crop up over the years. SCI was, you know, one of the early movers in the space, but there's there's a handful of others. I kinda you know, in today's age where education has moved to online, my own alma mater, you know, has since gone away with with online degrees and these kind of things. So I see more continuing ed digital solutions kind of pointed targeted trainings for a lot of folks that are wanting to get into the space but already have a degree in something else.
Khanti:It could be finance. It could be general construction, electricians trying to grow their business and get into a new space. And they don't have the time to perhaps, you know, fly across the country for an in-depth training or do a degree program. So I think we'll see more and more companies kind of ramping up their own internal trainings and using folks like SEI to supplement it or to support them in creating their own programs as well as more targeted trainings. It's like this is a a training for for electricians that had never done solar.
Khanti:This is a training for people that have been mining but just need to understand the the electrical and the safety piece, but they don't need to understand everything else.
Joe:And tell us a little bit about your work at SameSun of Vermont. I I'd say Vermont has been at the forefront of a lot of solar and innovation, their utilities, and it sounds like you've seen a lot of the industry evolve in the state over the last twenty five years. What were you doing at Samsung?
Khanti:So I was vice president there, you know, small EPC. We were running up to three, maybe four crews at the most. So I was overseeing operations, engineering. I mean, small company. Right?
Khanti:You wear many hats, but but all those areas kind of reported to me, and I reported to to ownership. So I I primarily worked on growing our teams, working on our our safety, what our PPE was, what, you know, what angle we wanted to go after in a small relatively small market and how to differentiate ourselves. I would often handle most of the unique projects, Whistlepig being one of them, which we can talk about. Those are the ones that I really enjoyed. Those were I could kinda dig in, get out of the office, and, figure out how to solve unique challenges, which going back years in the space, that's kind of the the norm for this space, right, is is unique projects as the industry has evolved.
Joe:And if you were starting a a business today, just based on your experience having done it, you know, so long ago and being in manufacturing space, being in training space, how would you build that business, or what lessons would you take from your experience having done it fifteen, twenty years ago and talking to installers today? You know, what do you see as the major changes in the industry, and how would you build the business? What what are the main values you would bring to building a business if you were to start one today?
Khanti:Boy, that is a really good question. Given the solar coaster rolling on, as you know right now with everything that's happening, you know, I think my my foundation would be based on working off, you know, your strengths, what it is that you do best, and what it is that you enjoy the most. Right? Because that's what's gonna make you most successful. And then looking for opportunities to diversify and have the ability to say yes to more projects so you can you can kind of roll with the the solar coaster.
Khanti:Right? You can absorb some of the pain that we see on a year to year basis, and you can thrive on the high points. But, yeah, that's that's that's a tough one. I I think I think you have to build you have to build a culture that people wanna join you. I've worked for, you know, some companies where that's not the case, and it's hard to keep people.
Khanti:It's hard to keep good people. So you you gotta, you know, have core values, make them clear to the team that you're trying to build, and then the saying goes, you know, your vibe attracts your tribe. Right? That's that's I think that's an important statement, and then focus and double down on the areas where you're strongest, and I think you'll grow from there.
Joe:Yeah. It's funny. I I would have given the same answer because you notice a lot of the big box solar installers are going bankrupt now and going out of business. But it seems like the, quote, unquote, long tail, these installers that are local, regional, vertically integrated, quality businesses, mission oriented, they retain a lot of people. The people like working for them because they're mission oriented and because the founders are still there.
Joe:They like, they're working for a purpose. Do you have an opinion, or do you do you see that trend continuing? Do you think there will still be national installers five, ten years from now or will mostly be local regional installers?
Khanti:I don't think the the small to medium guys will go away. I I think they're the ones that are the most nimble and that can adapt. Right? It's just the bigger ones that will have the most difficulty because a lot of what they do is and I don't mean to box anyone in, but a lot of what they do is, you know, standardizing on certain offering, you know, whether it's ownership or TPO or it's this product or that, they're slower to adapt, and that's where we've seen the the struggles. The challenge, right, is as a small installer, it's that how do we scale?
Khanti:How do we get bigger? How do we get where they are? Right? But how do we do that without compromising our core values, without getting to the same pain points that they are already experiencing? And then the, you know, the the bigger companies, it's kind of in reverse.
Khanti:It's, you know, what do our shareholders require? What do we need to do to streamline operations to be to be profitable? But it's it's like stopping a a big rig versus a a little small EV. Right? It takes longer for that truck to to slow down and turn.
Khanti:So the challenges on both sides, I don't see the I think the small to medium ones will be the most well suited to kinda roll with the punches, especially with the upcoming tax changes and everything.
Joe:I would love to get your opinion on the potential tax tax changes. If the ITC goes away in two weeks, what do you think the industry looks like for the next several years? Who's gonna survive? How do we get to below $2 a lot so that folks can still pencil these systems out in seven to ten year paybacks? What do you think the implications would be?
Khanti:Yeah. It's that's a really good question too. I don't have a crystal ball either. I guess I take comfort in looking back on the twenty plus years that I've been in the space, and I recall at least twice where we've kinda had this ITC cliff. And in those cases, it wasn't necessarily, you know, a new administration saying they're gonna be gone, you know, in the next month.
Khanti:Right? It was kind of this expected sunset coming up, and will it be extended? I recall that the mad dash to get connection applications in and to, you know, get as many new customers as you could. It was just kind of this desperation. And yet, you know, here we are year over year, and we're stronger as an industry than we've ever been.
Khanti:So I I take stock in knowing that we will adapt. And in some ways, cutting attached credit umbilical cord of sorts may end up being a gift. It's just hard to see it that way because we're reliant on it to get the economics as as low as possible. Some would argue that we've kind of entered a race to the bottom with pricing, which might lead us to why we've seen some issues with workmanship and this kind of gold rush approach of people getting into the space that are not as qualified or not putting in the work that we would like to maintain the reputation of the space. So I'm I'm walking a fine line in my response because on one hand, it's terrifying, and I think there's gonna be some players that fall.
Khanti:And and those that can adapt and and look for solutions that make their operations more efficient, that use products like connectors. That's my little pitch. We'll be the ones that figure out ways to to, you know, tighten the belt and and thrive. And, really, when there's less incentives tied to it, right, we can we're a little more freed by that. But, yeah, it's gonna be rocky if this passes.
Joe:It's gonna be a grand experiment, but that is a perfect segue to talk about ConnectDR. I'll say, when I had a solar business, I had the opportunity to try just about every toy out there in the industry, and I built a little mini NREL in my own home where I could try all these cool technologies. But the only one I couldn't try was ConnectDR because it wasn't quite yet approved by our utility. So tell us a little bit about the technology, where you've seen it go, where you you see it going, your day to day role, and and how you interact with utilities as you try to expand the use of this.
Khanti:I joke that I've had kinda two love at first sight moments in my life. One, obviously, being my wife, but the second kind of being my first meter socket adapter. So that's about as nerdy and as you get, I guess. But, know, if if you look back on your career in the in the space, you think back to the moments where you've seen something, a product development or something changes in the industry and you look at it and you go, oh, that's gonna change how we can do business. That's gonna change how, you know, how efficient we are.
Khanti:That's interesting. Right? I mean, it was interesting when inverters were limited to 7.6 kw because they were matching the size of of a 200 amp main panel because we we we interconnected via a backfed circuit breaker and systems were small. Right? If you did a a seven eight nine k w system, that was a big job.
Khanti:Amazing how things have changed. So so when I saw connectors kind of early version v one solar meter socket adapter, it was one of those moments. It was does that do what I think it does? Because if it does and the utility allows it, that's gonna change the game for us. And that's really what Connector as the company is called.
Khanti:Everybody says Connect d e r, but but, yeah, connector. That's really the core value proposition, right, is to simplify, standardize, reduce costs, avoid barriers. That's that that is what the product does. It is taking an aspect of a DER installation, so that could be solar, EV, storage, and saying what is one of the more complex parts of that install. In many cases, it's how do you connect it to the home.
Khanti:Right? Who do you have on your small or large team that's qualified to go into a house and say, this is how it can be connected to meet code, to be safe, and by the way, to be efficient and fast so we can get to the next job? That and that that has been tricky for for companies to standardize. You can standardize the racking that you use, the inverters that you use, the PV modules that you use. Are you doing a breaker?
Khanti:Are you doing a supply side tap as it's incorrectly still referred to? Or are you using piercing connectors? Are you do you have to do a service service replacement or an MPU? So connectors, meter socket adapters, or collars as they're often referred to in the space, are directly targeting that challenge. Right?
Khanti:It's standardizing where they get interconnected. It gets interconnected to an adapter that sits directly between a meter socket and a billing meter, and it basically creates this this outdoor pluggable interface for your solar, for your EV, for your battery storage, etcetera, where you don't have to go in the house anymore. I don't care how scary your main panel looks. I don't know. I don't care if there's any breaker spots available.
Khanti:I don't care about the 120% rule or option. This is where I'm gonna go. You know? Obviously, there's some implications there because we're playing in the utility sandbox, which we can talk about. But yeah.
Joe:Yeah. I remember during COVID, this was particularly innovative or interesting to installers because people didn't want them to go into their homes. So did you see a surge in interest during the COVID times, and and how did you see installers utilizing the product to to give homeowners comfort?
Khanti:I wouldn't say we saw a surge in in sales per se. It was a tough time, I think, across the industry. But what it did do is it gave us some some strong talking points to convince sold jobs not to cancel. Right? And so there's a lot of people.
Khanti:I mean, I can speak from personal experience. I have a a child with some sensitivities and stuff and, you know, health issues and, you know, the idea of, you know I mean, if you go back a few years, we were scared about bringing groceries in the house that weren't sanitized. I mean, depending on where you were. Right? It was a scary time.
Khanti:So the thought of bringing contractor into your home, not just one or two, but maybe three or four, was a nonstarter for many folks. So we saw some concern about people saying, know, we're gonna postpone or cancel because we don't want anybody in our house. So it was really nice to be able to say, we're using module level electronics at the time so that that's more out of the house. And now we have an interconnection method that actually I don't need to go into your basement or your garage or your main panel. I we're all outside.
Khanti:And I I would say it was it was a really good tool to have in our arsenal to to keep business during that period.
Joe:And so when you talk to utilities about this technology, how is it received? So what percent of utilities would you say the the product is approved in now? And what are the main challenges to getting utilities to understand the technology and accept it?
Khanti:Connector has just over 30,000 meter socket adapters installed across the country now. We have a page on our website. It's connector.com/checkavailability, I believe. Sure. We can share the link, and it shows all the utilities that we have across the country.
Khanti:I think there's over 40 utilities now. Right? So this is it's kind of like a domino effect. Right? Though utilities are different, but it's not like they're completely siloed.
Khanti:They do talk to each other. And so in the early years, you know, Green Mountain Power here in Vermont, that's kind of the the green unicorn of of utilities was a a low hanging fruit for adoption for for new technologies and pilots. But you go to your larger, you know, you know, your IOUs in California, your your Exalons, your ComEds, and stuff. Right? They're they're very set in how they do business for decades and decades.
Khanti:And so you are proposing something that is a change. And depending on the utility, they might be fairly curious or warm to it, or they might be completely opposed right off the bat. So what Connector learned from a very early point, I think, is that there's really two products that Connector has. One is the hardware, and the other is our market opening engine. And so we have an just an incredible group, the whole segment of the company.
Khanti:That's all they do is it's our market opening team. And so they're working with utilities directly, just straight advocacy, grassroot efforts. They're working with our customers, installers for for similar. And then when you run into to headwinds there, they're working with, you know, PUCs, regulators, legislators. We're working with competitors.
Khanti:We're pushing the same rock up the same hill. Right? So sometimes we'll we'll be filing documents along with Tesla and other companies that make a competing product because at the end of the day, we're all we're all trying to do the same thing, which is get more DERs into the grid, clean up the grid, and make it easier and cheaper for homeowners to do it. So, yeah, it's it's exciting. Every year, we seem to open up, you know, two, three, four new states, new groups of utilities.
Khanti:A few years ago, it was Arizona and Colorado, and then it was New Jersey and Illinois. Right now, we're on the precipice of California, which is very, very, very exciting. Everybody's heard of rule 21 in the inverter space. Right? Most people probably never heard of rule 31, which is basically just getting approved now, and that's for customer owned meter socket adapters in California.
Khanti:One might argue that the the dam's got some significant cracks in it that we're that we're really digging in on.
Joe:And and what about talking to installers? You know, do you have any case studies that you show them to say, like, it's gonna save you this much time? You're gonna have, you know, fewer cancellations by this percent. You're gonna be able to install for more folks who don't have space in their breaker panel and and wanna avoid a 3 to $5,000 upgrade. What are some of the value propositions you convey to installers when talking about the technology?
Khanti:Yeah. Our so that's something our sales team and our training team that's that's growing. When I when I joined Connector three and a half years ago, I think I was employee number 29 or 30, and I I believe we just hit 70 in three years. So we're growing to try and meet this challenge, and and that's one of them. Joe is is conveying that value prop for what many installers haven't heard of before, I've never never used.
Khanti:The the most obvious, most tangible value prop that that installers resonate with is is MPU avoidance. So we kinda go be I like to go beyond MPU main panel upgrade because what the data shows is that even if you have a small 100 amp service, you're not using a 100 amps. You're not even using 80 amps continuously. Right? Unless you're, you know, massive house with air conditioning in Arizona perhaps or you're a a pot farmer in Northern California or something.
Khanti:Right? So going from a 100 amp panel to a 200 amp panel for most, is that actually a upgrade? You're kind of the victim of conservative code requirements for load calcs. Right? So service upsizing, service replacements.
Khanti:Right? These are things that the code, you know, kind of forces you into in a way when you're talking about larger PV systems and larger EV EVSE and stuff like that. So by by using an MSA, a meter socket adapter, you're just bypassing that completely and saying, hey. Whether you were wrapping in the the the MPU, the service replacement, whether that's $3,000, $5,000, or maybe if you had an underground service under a sidewalk in in California, maybe that was a $20,000 job that takes, you know, PG and E or someone six months to to facilitate. That goes away.
Khanti:Right? Hard stop. That that's no longer a problem. You can say yes, and you're not, you know, upcharging the customer significant amount of money. For a PV system, $34,000 might be, you know, while there's a tax credit, especially might might be fairly absorbable.
Khanti:But when you get into smaller systems or EV charging where where the the couple drives off the lot thinking they just need to buy a $500 EV charger, but they actually need a $5,000 upgrade. You know? That can be that can be a significant obstacle to adoption. So that's that's number one. What I like to really dig in with installers is what I learned from my personal experience, and that's just the value of standardizing how you interconnect, right, which is ironic because I said earlier that you want you wanna have different tools.
Khanti:You know, you gotta be versatile. But installers are very used to standardizing on the equipment they use and, you know, some installers won't even do ground mounts. Right? They're they're they're trying to increase their efficiencies to the point where you can get more jobs squeezed in. So a meter socket adapter really has that ability because you no longer need somebody with with, you know, technical qualifications to when I was doing it, you're you know, doing the sales call while removing the the cover of a breaker panel, you know, and trying not to kill power to the whole house by accident while you're telling them about why your company's better.
Khanti:That may not be the case anymore, but to be able to just say, oh, I need a solar meter socket adapter either with a 40 amp breaker or 60 amp breaker or an 80 amp breaker, and that that's it. It's a much different story in terms of streamlining your operations, and COVID was another good one to stay out of the house. Even not during COVID. Right? You have a high probability of letting Fluffy escape from the house by accident or dragging mud through the hallway or forgetting to close the attic hatch.
Khanti:There's there's a there's a myriad of potential potholes that the installation crew can fall into, and the meter socket adapter is one of those ones where even if it's a wash financially with the line side tap, tremendous amount of efficiency can be gained across an installation season if that's how you standardize, how you interconnect at the house. And that's kind of what we're we're working on sharing with with installers in the field.
Joe:Have you seen this technology in other countries? Is there anything comparable or have you thought about expanding into other markets?
Khanti:So anywhere where there's your ANSI type plug in meter on the side of a house, right, when you get to Europe and other places, that's not how metering is done. There is no round meter on the side of the house. Right? It's it's in another piece of enclosure. So, you know, Canada, parts of Mexico, Puerto Rico, these are these are areas that we're definitely looking at.
Khanti:Part of the challenge is there's not perfect standards overlap. And so our team is is working with UL and other Nerdles to try and fix that. But primarily, it's connectors and meter socket adapters in general are a residential North America product.
Joe:And looking ahead, what emerging technology trends in distributed energy resources are exciting to you, and how is connect Connector is thinking about preparing for them?
Khanti:I would say storage, both stationary and mobile. So our industry is is getting very intimately familiar with stationary storage right now. This is fascinating for me being in the space for quite a while, right, where this we we call this solar solar plus storage. And I I think we've you know, correct me if you if you disagree or if you think I'm off base here, but I I think we've kind of crossed that precipice now of the inverse where where in many parts of the country now, it's it's storage plus solar, which which blows my mind. And it's kinda full circle because that's where I started twenty plus years ago was was you need a battery to put solar in, right, off grid.
Khanti:And here we are. You need you need battery first. And then if if you can swing it, put PV on. It'll make your battery last longer. So this is exciting.
Khanti:On the tailwind of that is mobile storage, which which is the the big battery that comes in in the car that many of us are now driving. I've driven an EV now for ten years. It's fantastic. And you have this giant battery that's equivalent to, like, 10 plus stationary batteries sitting in your driveway just doing nothing. So I'm I'm really excited about that.
Khanti:That's what I've been basically tasked with at Connector working on for over the past year is a meter socket adapter that can accommodate both stationary and mobile, you know, or Vita Vita h, vehicle to home type of applications. I think that'll be a game changer. I think it'll have a tremendous impact on our on our industry, especially as we we go into this next kind of unknown, perhaps, less period where we can diversify our energy sources, including using our our vehicle. So the the islanding meter socket adapter, which I can talk about, what we call Islander, is coming to market in the next few months. We've got a pilot starting with PG and E in California July, August, and that's exactly what it's what it's designed to support at the meter, the whole house isolation so that you can use your your stationary battery or you can use your mobile battery in your car to back up your whole house seamlessly, blinklessly during a power outage.
Khanti:Little more difficult with the car because the car might not be there. So hard hard to say the lights won't blink.
Joe:Okay. Oh, I would love to learn more about that. That that's the other technology that I have personally been looking forward to. It seems like it's always around the corner. Are you saying that it's gonna help homeowners who have an EV to use it as backup for their homes without having a dedicated piece of technology from in the garage, like a bidirectional charger, or would it work in conjunction with that?
Khanti:It would work in conjunction with it. Right? We were talking about a form factor, not much larger than a grapefruit. Right? So, you know, in until there's, you know, bidirectional AC output from the cars and you've you've got that capability, we're still gonna be working with an off board inverter, you know, bidirectional EVSE.
Khanti:But what we're doing is we're simplifying the process. You don't need a gateway box, you know, with a with a microgrid interconnect device and transformer and other switch gear. Right? This is all built right into the meter socket adapter. And so we have I think we're up to about 20 industry partners in the storage space, including a few bidirectional EVSE players.
Khanti:So that's that's exciting to start working with them to realize that into the market here.
Joe:What do you think has delayed some of the vehicle to home to grid technologies? But why does it seem like it's it's always been closed but not commercialized as soon as some folks would like.
Khanti:The easy answer, I guess, would be the lack of standards, lack of consensus on standards, and just the general inertia of big change. Right? Using your car to provide power to your house, that's like magic. Right? And so I think there's some inertia there that we have to overcome with the way things have always been and relying on big manual transfer switches for for generators to fire up and stuff and with changing that paradigm.
Khanti:At the end of the day, though, these products need to be listed to a standard that AHJs can can believe in and can look up and read and interpret. So I think it's it was a UL ninety seven forty one, I think, is the the emerging standard for bidirectional EVSE. Perhaps it's not even emerging. It might be in place now. So I think with I think with the standards firming up and the, you know, adoption with EV sales becoming more streamlined where now you look down your road and you you see at least, you know, one or two of your neighbors with an EV in the driveway, including those that work on the the technical committees for these standards.
Khanti:I I think it's it's just a matter of time. I I think we're starting to see products that are already starting to list to these standards and do demos. You've got Ford. You got Wahlbox. You got you got some real well known names that are already starting to do it.
Joe:It's exciting technology, and it's it's very cool that you guys are gonna be involved in it. Going back to your educator days, as someone who's worked and taught in SEI and root renewable energy programs, how do you see the role of education evolving and changing as we prepare for the next generation of solar professionals?
Khanti:Yeah. I was thinking about that. As I mentioned earlier, it's it's hard for right? You kinda have I think of the demographic in two buckets. Right?
Khanti:You have folks that are disillusioned with their current career. When I was at SEI in Colorado, we had this in spades. Right? So many people coming to the training from finance, from software development, and they're just disillusioned with it, and they wanted a a new start. Right?
Khanti:And so they are one group of folks that really need a a ground up education about Ohm's law and and Volt's and Watson Ampson. Right? Like, that's that's one category. But I think where we're moving towards is the folks that are already working in houses, doing electrical work, doing roofing work, doing HVAC work, fire alarms stuff. And they're looking for opportunities to diversify their businesses, expand.
Khanti:They've seen the kind of the gold rush of PV, and they want in. So I see trainings role kind of evolving from more of a here's a solar panel. Here's how to test it with a multimeter. You know? Here's how to figure out peaks on hours from a chart in the back of a book.
Khanti:I think it's moving more towards you're you're an electrician that just doesn't know PV. You know? What are the code sections that apply to you? What is six ninety and seven zero five and two twenty? And some of these sections that they just haven't spent much time in, but that they can take their skill set confidently, adapt it, and get into the space.
Khanti:I think that's kinda where and and those trainings could be, you know, remote. They could be online. I I don't really wanna take anything away from traveling up to Colorado and spending a week in one of the most beautiful places with some of the most knowledgeable people you'll ever meet at SEI, for example. But it's just not realistic to scale our our space. Right?
Khanti:I think that that's needed for that especially for that first bucket and those that are really looking for a a big reset. But I think we need to find ways for for the education system to adapt quicker, more pointed training. That said, I'm also quite concerned about there's no amount of training that can fix just bad habits. Right? And so that goes back to the culture of the company.
Khanti:And I'm not sure exactly what the answer is there. You know, I would implore companies to to double down on on their safety culture. Just because you can do two jobs in one day doesn't mean it's a good idea or doesn't mean that you won't pay that extra dollar per watt in service calls. Right? That's that's a cultural change.
Khanti:We can we can train them how to put in flashings and and rails and, you know, to the tee. But if that culture is not there, then you were gonna see that kind of Solar Bro culture of, you know, get it in, get it installed. Not my problem anymore. So I think it's a little bit of all of the above as a broad answer.
Joe:And and so relate related to that, you know, if you have somebody in a part of the country maybe you're not familiar with that's interested in going solar, know, you've got an uncle in Missouri or something, How do you give them guidance on on how to find an installer that has a good culture that is quality? Do you direct them to a particular resource or a directory? You just tell them to go on Google? How do you think about that?
Khanti:I would say it depends on which which of those two buckets that I think they fall more into. Right? If if they're that software developer that's been sitting behind a desk for twenty years and they're just desperate for a career change, I'm gonna direct them out to Colorado for a few weeks and really get their knuckles bloody and and find out what the space, the industry, the tech is about so that if it's not for them, they don't waste any more time than that. If it's you're my electrician buddy or a roofing friend or bucket number two, where I tend to to go is to to put them in touch with a local installer and say, you know, I've got some technical skills. Can I shadow can I should I shadow you?
Khanti:Can I volunteer? Can I intern? You know, this is gonna depend greatly on who they're talking to. Ideally, it's a warm introduction, and it's, hey. This is my friend, Joe.
Khanti:He's been very handy. He knows how to read a tape measure. He'll pick this up quick. He just needs to know what the space is like and, you know, could be a great hire for you in the future kinda thing. If it's not that, it's it can be tricky.
Khanti:But start start local. Talk to your local installer, intern, shadow, get some get some experience because you can't just get on Indeed and, you know, pretend like you have it. You you do need some baseline experience, and you do need to get familiar with what these spaces really like. I've conducted so many job interviews for installers, and I would paint the most bleak picture I could about the cold the freezing cold attics and roofs and shoveling snow in the winter to the brutally hot crawl spaces just to see what their what their temperature was like when you can see the face expression or explain that I have a real specialty tool that that they have to understand how to use for consideration, and I'd pull out a tape measure. But you could tell immediately whether there was, like, let's do it.
Khanti:Let's go. Or whether there's a pause of, like, I don't yet fully understand how to read a tape measure, or that sounds terrible. I don't wanna shovel snow every first job in the colder climates. So, yeah, no one shoe fits all, but jump in, talk to people doing it. Local installers will give you the best, you know, experience for where you currently are at and and get a sense of the culture.
Khanti:I would recommend that they look at the company culture, the safety culture, as much as the pay, if not more. Because you if you don't have those things, you're not gonna end up staying there.
Joe:Amen. I agree with that. My my favorite question I try to ask on all these interviews, if you were king of the solar industry for a day, what's the one change you would make that you think would have the biggest impact in increasing solar penetration?
Khanti:Oh, it can only be one.
Joe:You can have two if you really want to.
Khanti:Yeah. It's that's extremely difficult for me to say one. I think at the end of the day, people have to remember that that their customers are people with real houses. They're just they're not just jobs to conquer. I I I want to see I want to see in person site visits and and personalized attention.
Khanti:We're we're we're saying this is a twenty five, thirty year investment. Right? We're saying that this equipment is warrantied and lasted for that long. And yet we're doing site proposals from from satellite software. We're we're banging out the job in a day, and and the customer often doesn't know who who's who at the company.
Khanti:And I understand that there's challenges with scale, but I'd like to see some ownership of the of the experience for the customer. This is you know, the only other thing we buy that's supposed to last or we're supposed to appreciate for thirty years is a house. And I don't think where we are as an industry anymore is treating it that way. I think it's just another sale and get on to the next and the next and the next. We're seeing harm to the industry now because of that culture.
Khanti:Yeah. Yeah. That's what comes to mind first. I have a lot of opinions about about equipment and and MLPE and rapid shutdown, and I I mean but we don't have time, don't think.
Joe:No. That's a good answer. It's a cultural change, and I applaud what Nevada did in requiring w two salespeople. And I think that's very much related to what you're talking about is making sure that whomever you're interacting with at this business ideally isn't knocking on your door. And if they are, they're a w two employee of that business.
Joe:So they're part of the culture. They're accountable to that company. I think those are the kinds of regulatory changes that lead to a larger cultural change in giving our industry a better name. So I think that's a great answer. Okay.
Joe:I I gotta ask about installing solar on Vernon Sanders' house. How did that happen, and how did it end up? How did it look?
Khanti:So I yeah. I could I'll give you a quick quick rundown on Bernie and quick rundown on Whistle Pig. Bernie same son got Bernie Sanders because he was insistent on American made products, and we were one of the only companies in Vermont that towed the line with only installing American, I guess, manufactured products since, you know, ten years ago, there wasn't a whole lot of American manufacturing still. But so, yeah, you know, it was referrals. So two things.
Khanti:One, I cannot overstate the importance of, and this ties back to the culture and giving your your customers attention listening to them because that's how you get referrals, and that is cheaper than any marketing form. Right? And so customer of a customer of a customer knew Bernie's wife, and so we got on the shortlist. The second thing was, do you use American made products? And we said we all at that time, we only do credit to the company owner at that time.
Khanti:It made our life a lot harder from a from a procurement supply chain perspective to only have I think it was SolarWorld at at the time, but it was it was a done deal with him at the moment because the larger guys wouldn't offer it more expensive. So that was Bernie. And at commissioning, he he didn't seem very happy, and it was because it's no good unless everybody down his whole street could also do it as well, and it's out of reach financially for for the average American. So he was I'm not even gonna try and do an impression, but he was groaning and grumbling about, it's all fine and good that I did it, but who cares? Right?
Khanti:We all have to do it. So that was fun. The whistle pig story was was a good one too because we had tried for years to get their business. Their only their farm and distillery was only thirty minutes north of our shop. They're just completely unresponsive.
Khanti:And we finally got a meeting with their CEO, and his words to me were solar installers just proposed the same ugly rectangles. I'm not interested. So, of course, my my immediate response was, oh, oh, well, we I can do all black. Right? The only tool I had in my at my at my disposal was, like, triple black, black frame, black backsheet.
Khanti:You know? And I'm thinking to myself, like, I can't make a w on this roof with rectangles. Like, this is not happening. So I was like, I'll make it look like skylights. It'll just be a black roof.
Khanti:And he was just like, no. Not interested. So the owner at the time said, I know you're looking at other proposals. I'll I'll tell you what. If if we come up with something new and novel that you that blows your mind, if in one week, will you give us the business and you'll stop talking to anybody that you're talking to?
Khanti:And his hand went right out. He shook her hand, said, you have one week and it's yours. So this comes back to another recommendation I would have to those getting into the space, and that is the value of networking. I immediately went to my network and said, you know, SOS, I've got an incredible commercial opportunity, huge upside, completely opposed to anything standard. Right?
Khanti:And one of my connections jumped in and was like, have you talked to the guys at Sistine Solar who make the the wrap? And I never of course, I never heard of them, but it was within it was within one twenty four hours I had that recommendation from my network, Eric. It it was at Panasonic at the time. And sure enough, within two days, I had a mock up printed at Staples this big on a easel on their tasting deck with a visual of the array that looked like a field of rye with the name Whistlepig spelled across it. And so we got the deal.
Khanti:But it's just counter counterintuitive. Right? Because we're selling something for 30% more that produced 20% less because those those skins, you know, they they they let 80% of the radiance through, but they still block some. But listen to the customer. Right?
Khanti:Listen to the customer. The customer said, I don't care. I'm not going solar unless my brand is front and center. So you can see their brand now from from Google Earth. I'm pretty sure it costs more.
Khanti:It produces less, but they want solar.
Joe:So So it's so funny. As you were talking, I was thinking about Cystine Solar because we were taking a look at them for the same types of applications early in our solar business. That's so funny. But that's a great way to end this conversation because the name of the show is what solar installers need to know. So listen to your customer.
Joe:They're almost always right. Kanji, thank you for taking an hour out of your day. This is so fun. Love everything that's going on at Connector. Appreciate your service to the solar industry.
Joe:There's not many people who would spend twenty five years building this industry who've seen every side of it. And so we really appreciate you sharing your perspective today.
Khanti:Yeah. It's my pleasure. Really nice to talk with you.
Joe:Thanks everybody for joining. This has been what solar installers need to know, and we'll see you next time.
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